Novelist and film director Shamim Sarif

I first met film director Shamim Sarif and her partner in business and life Hanan Kattan in Manchester (UK) this year for a charity screening of Sarif’s second venture The World Unseen (2007).  One week later, we met again at the 23rd London Lesbian & Gay Film Festival for the screening of Sarif’s directorial debut I Can’t Think Straight (2007).  Finally, one sunny spring morning at an organic cafe in the heart of London, just days before the UK DVD release of both films, we met again for this interview.

Also an award-winning novelist, British-born Sarif attracts fans of all ages and backgrounds with her books’ universal themes crossing boundaries of race, gender and generation.  While embraced by the queer community as a lesbian cultural icon (she received an Afterellen.com 2009 Visibility Award as “International Lesbian/Bi Woman of the Year”), she is not only breaking ground as a director in independent queer cinema, but is well on her way towards mainstream recognition.  And the inspired casting of Bollywood star and former model Lisa Ray for her first 2 projects has only helped to bring even greater mainstream lift to her films.

Touring festivals worldwide, including Toronto International Film Festival, London Lesbian & Gay Film Festival, Frameline, Outfest, Tokyo International Lesbian & Gay Film Festival and the upcoming Asian Queer Film Festival in Tokyo, I Can’t Think Straight  and The World Unseen were produced by the Enlightenment Productions company set up by Sarif and Kattan themselves.

I Can’t Think Straight is based on Sarif’s third novel.  The romantic comedy tracks the passionate relationship between spirited Jordanian-born Christian Tala (played by Lisa Ray) and shy British-born Indian Muslim Leyla (played by Sheetal Sheth).  However, the connection which develops between the two women is not without its challenges, and Tala and Leyla soon find themselves in emotional deep water.  With the film adaptation, Sarif took her multi-tasking talents to a new level, writing also the lyrics for two songs on the soundtrack.  Lisa Ray and Sheetal Sheth, the two stunningly beautiful and talented leads brought further glamour and passion to the project, while singer-songwriter Leonie Casanova completed the romantic package with her soulful lyrics and sound.

Sarif’s first novel The World Unseen was received to great acclaim, and the film version has followed suit by garnering awards, including a phenomenal 11 SAFTA (South African Film and Television) awards in February 2009.  With its outstanding cinematography, this is a film best appreciated on the big screen.  I Can’t Think Straight actresses Ray and Sheth were cast again as the romantic leads, but in entirely reversed roles, demonstrating their versatility and commitment to Sarif’s projects.  While Ray plays the diffident Miriam, struggling with the constraints of her marriage to Omar, Sheth plays the independent and tomboyish Amina who brings Miriam out of her shell.  The love and admiration that grows between the two women lead to major awakenings in each other’s lives – a story told against the backdrop of a glorious South African landscape, the socio-political challenges of the time, and again the dulcet tones of Leonie Casanova.

Sarif has also adapted her second novel Despite the Falling Snow into a screenplay, and the project is now in development stage.

Talking frankly here about her background and how she made the transition from acclaimed novelist to successful film director, Sarif remains remarkably modest and philosophical about life, love and success.  With such a down-to-earth approach to life and unflagging creative zeal, there’s no doubt in my mind that we are going to see even greater things from Shamim Sarif in years to come.

Shamim Sarif with her partner in life and business, producer Hanan Kattan

I read that you’re of Indian and South African decent but you were actually born in England.  Could you please describe your family background?

Yeah, sure!  My parents and 3 of my grandparents were born in South Africa but my great grandparents are originally from India.  We’ve got a really long history in South Africa, so that was very present to me growing up.  My parents came over to London in the early 60s because of apartheid.  Afrikaans is the second language they used, rather than Gujarati.  And we had a lot of South African food and Indian food on the table, so it was a very rich heritage.

I feel very British, being born and brought up here, but I would say my next closest thing would be South African… and then Indian. 

Yes, it was 13 years in February.  And 2 kids of 10 and 6.

How do you manage to balance everything – your creative work, paid work, family and kids?

I don’t know… I’m shattered!  “Shatterjapan”… shattered me!  It’s tough, because it really is those 3 things.  You don’t want to neglect your kids, because really in 10 years they’ll be gone and you won’t have that time with them again.  And yes, you have to do the paid work.  I’m lucky that at this stage we are trying to be able to make that work with the Enlightenment Group, so at least we’re selling soundtracks or DVDs, which is also really hard work, but at least you feel it’s helping towards the creative side.  This is the year it has to work for us, otherwise… well, we don’t think about “otherwises”!  That’s a priority this year.  And it’s really weird with the creative side, because, in the old days – pre-children – you kind of had the luxury of sinking into that creative flow, and it didn’t matter if hours went by, if you didn’t know where you were or if you were in that moment for days… but you can’t do that with kids because someone’s at school waiting to be picked up or fed or something.  I was worried about how that would affect me on the creative side, but it gave me a kind of discipline.  I get into my creative moment a lot quicker than I used to.  Sometimes you need structure and form and those kinds of things to force you to be more creative in a way.

She did, she did!  The other thing is I can’t do it without her, because she will take the bulk of things with the kids whenever I’m working creatively.  She’s a driving force…

Shamim Sarif’s partner and producer Hanan Kattan

So, do you think it’s important to have a strong support system when you’re doing something which requires spending so much time alone?

Hugely.  I never expected to meet someone I could bear to be with, frankly, because I’m very solitary.

In I Can’t Think Straight and The World Unseen, you talk about conflicts with family related to sexual identity, and making difficult choices.  Did you experience the same struggles with coming out to your family?  Or did you wait until you entered a serious relationship before you came out?

Exactly.  I basically let it wait until Hanan, who was the first woman I had a relationship with.  I knew from earlier on, say mid-teens.  It wasn’t because I didn’t want to accept it, because I think I accepted it about myself, but I didn’t want to rock the boat.  I was very close to my parents and I was a bit of a homebody, not a very extroverted person, so there was never any reason to create a thing of it – so I didn’t.  But, as soon as I met Hanan, we were together during the week, so it was like, “That’s it.”

Sarif and Kattan at the after-party of a charity screening of The World Unseen (Manchester, March 2009)

Shamim Sarif, shooting The World Unseen

How did your journey into filmmaking begin?

I studied English Literature at London University, which I consider studying writing, because you get to study the best writers around.  And then, I did a Masters degree in English at Boston University.  I kind of fell into working for my dad, because there was nothing I wanted to do except write, but I couldn’t say, “Well, I’m going to be a writer and that’s that.”  So, I went to his company every day.  He was in finance investments, life insurance, stuff like that…

I’m now seeing a few links with Leyla’s father in I Can’t Think Straight!

“It sells itself!” but I don’t think my dad ever actually said that!   I did that for about 10 year, on and off.  During that time, I started writing short stories and eventually got some published.  I wrote a screenplay and then the novel The World Unseen.  When that novel got published, I quit working for him and basically concentrated on creative work.

Was it a conscious decision to become a film director, or was it just a natural progression from writing to filmmaking?

It was conscious, but it happened quicker than I expected.  Before I wrote the book The World Unseen, the first full-length thing I ever wrote was a screenplay – it was called The Reader at the time, funnily enough.  It’s changed now to The Dreaming Spires, and it’s actually the next project we’re working on.  It got optioned to a company in LA and it was all going well.  But, even though it’s a story of unrequited love, they said they wanted 2 sex scenes and a nude scene and that that’s what it would take to get the 15 million dollar budget or whatever it was.  That made me really reevaluate what I was doing this for, so I walked away from that deal and started Enlightenment Productions.  It wasn’t about the money at that point, because if I wanted to make money, there are actually easier ways.  I wanted to have some kind of integrity to the story.  It was a big decision…

So, I was paralleling screenwriting and novel writing.  Then, I started taking courses in directing, because I felt it was something that I’d like to move into, to keep the flow and the vision from start to finish.  But, I got an opportunity to direct quicker than I’d expected with I Can’t Think Straight, because I hadn’t done the shorts, I hadn’t been on a set… I was completely green.

The number of female film directors in the industry is still remarkably low.  In your experience, have you felt your gender to be a barrier or a help in your work?

Actually, I haven’t felt it as a barrier – I’ve felt it as a help.  But then, we haven’t been through the more conventional industry routes to raise financing, so I don’t know if that would be an issue.  I don’t put it in my mind as an issue, because I still don’t see it as one.  If anything, I think women multi-task slightly better than men – let’s go out on a limb, let’s say it, we know it!

And you have a lot of women actually working on your films…

That’s the thing… we’ve had a lot of female support.  Our producers are women, including executive producers i.e. financiers, so it’s been a really great vibe.  They were just people who were passionate about the projects – we weren’t looking only for women.  But, I think the other plus point for me being a woman and writing very strong female stories is that, when it comes to casting and when it comes to standing out a little bit, we can get great actors attached, because it’s very rare in the movie industry to have stories which are female driven.  You can have a strong female role, but there’s always a strong male role as well.  Now, the downside of having a strong female role is people think it’s not good for sales, but I think of it as a plus.

Actually, the benefit of not having many films made like that is you can leap in there and experiment, because you’re not competing against a massive amount of similar films…

Exactly, and I think there is a real market for those films.  But, I think we’ll always probably keep our budgets really tight, in anticipation of the fact that, initially, we’re probably going to get an art house release rather than a mainstream release.  

Shamim Sarif, on the sets of The World Unseen (top) and I Can’t Think Straight (bottom)

Your first feature films The World Unseen and I Can’t Think Straight are being released simultaneously this year, but I Can’t Think Straight was actually developed first, wasn’t it?

Yes, I Can’t Think Straight did start first, and after that we financed and made The World Unseen.  The World Unseen was already a script for a long time.  Then, when I was writing I Can’t Think Straight as a book, I got stuck so made it into a screenplay.  When the guy who was going to finance The World Unseen read the I Can’t Think Straight screenplay, he loved it and said he preferred to do that one first because it’s right here in London, etc.  So we started working on I Can’t Think Straight within weeks.

Scene from The World Unseen (2007)

Scene from I Can’t Think Straight (2007)

You’ve been embraced as a “lesbian writer/director” but would you rather regard yourself as a “writer/director”?

I always prefer not to have labels.  You know, when my first book came out, it was like, “Here’s a new Asian-British writer.” – but why don’t we just say ”British writer” or “new writer”?  So, I’m very wary of labels generally, because I think they do tend to just confine you.  But, having said that, it is what it is, and the response from the lesbian community has been so amazing and phenomenal – so, I actually wear the badge proudly now!  Seriously, there are people who have literally gone to work for us across the globe.  I’ve been stunned by the amount of goodwill.  It’s really been helpful, because we’re in such a startup phase and we only have Hanan’s sister in LA. 

So, you’ve actually benefited from becoming a visible part of the lesbian culture community?

Definitely.  I had no idea, because I was never really part of that community, in the sense that I wasn’t very aware of gay culture and we still don’t have a huge number of gay friends.  It’s more because neither of us were out until we met each other – I was in my 20s and Hanan in her 30s.  It wasn’t like we were out at university.  And then of course you meet each other, you have a family and you have all your other friends by that point.

How did you finance the films?

These 2 have been through private equity, so that meant really keeping the budgets low.  They were reasonable budgets – I mean, they weren’t hundred thousand dollar movies but they weren’t tones of millions either.  We managed to scrape 30 days shooting for The World Unseen…

30 days for The World Unseen?  It doesn’t look like it at all…

No, it doesn’t, and that’s just a testament to everybody’s hard work on the film.  We used crew and cameras from India because that was the only way we could afford to shoot 35mm.  And I Can’t Think Straight ended up being 25 days, because we cut days out of the schedule while we were shooting… 

25 days is tight – that must have been a tough shoot…

That was really tough… I mean, I look at it now and I go, “Oh… we needed that, we needed that…”  We were lucky we were able to cover the story.  We ended up working 13 days in a row the last 2 weeks, I think.  Nobody got a day off and we did 16-hour days to cover for the fact that we cut it down to 25 days. 

Both films star the same 2 leading actresses – Bollywood star and former model Lisa Ray (Canadian of Indian/Polish decent) and Sheetal Sheth (American of Indian decent).  How did you cast them, and how was it for them to play such reversed roles from film to film?

We auditioned like crazy.  We were looking for actresses here – we weren’t looking to fly people in, but in the end that’s what we had to do, which is great because we knew Lisa’s work.  I hadn’t met her, but Hanan had met her once.  There was one actress who I thought could do it here – an Arab actress – but she didn’t want to do the love scenes.  For Lisa, I don’t think it even crossed her mind about the fact that it was a love story between 2 women, never mind about the love scenes, because I think she just really got the script and really liked it, and we hit it off together creatively.  We cast Sheetal literally a couple of weeks before we started shooting.  She came over to London – Hanan told her to pack for 2 months but be prepared to leave after 2 days!  For The World Unseen, both actresses read the book right at the beginning.  In fact, Sheetal read it while we were shooting I Can’t Think Straight.  She said to me, “Keep me in mind!”  

With the role reversal between the films, there was about 10 months between the films – we shot I Can’t Think Straight round June/July 2006 and The World Unseen in April 2007.  So Lisa and Sheetal had enough time to switch between roles.  It wasn’t like we shouted, “Action!  Cut!  Right, run over and change…” 

Lisa Ray (top) and Sheetal Sheth (bottom), stars of The World Unseen (far left) and I Can’t Think Straight

What was it like working with Lisa and Sheetal?  And in person, which of their characters in the 2 films do you think they most resemble?

It was great!  I had a good experience.  They’re so different as people, so it was a very different experience with both actresses.  I think Sheetal is probably a bit more like Amina, in that she’s more extrovert.  Sheetal is very unlike Leyla.  She’s much more gregarious, she’s always bouncing around on set making friends with everybody – it’s great to have her around.  I don’t think Lisa resembles either of them, particularly… she’s very fun, she’s got a great sense of humour, but on set she keeps to herself and puts her iPod on in between scenes – she has a big playlist of songs which gets her into character, and that’s where she stays.  So, she tends to build a wall around herself when she’s working.  But, she became a very good friend and she’s been on holiday with us.  She’s one of those people that we don’t hear from for a while, then there’s a knock on the door and she’s standing there with a suitcase!  She’ll say, “I’m just here for 3 days…”  She tends to move around, she’s just like that – she’s nomadic… 

How do they feel about the success of the films?  Also, how do they feel about being adopted by the lesbian community as lesbian icons?

Well, we have a laugh about it.  We tell them they’re always going to have a date on a Saturday night if they just want to switch teams!  I think they’re both proud of the movies.  They really enjoyed working on them – they like the characters and the themes. 

So, which of the lead characters in your stories do you personally relate to?  Or is there a bit of you in all of them?

There’s a bit of me in all of them, I would think.  Especially, more Miriam and more Leyla, definitely.  I can even relate to Omar.  I think with all these things, if you’re going to write about it convincingly, you have to have those feelings and understand what they are, even if you don’t have to extrapolate it to the extremes that your characters go to.  But, you have to know where it stems from and not judge that.  Of course, I judge it afterwards, saying, “This is not who I want to be.”  With Omar, I know what it is to be frustrated, to feel that kind of stress or that kind of fear – I don’t want to live like that, but I know what it’s like. 

Scenes from The World Unseen

Shamim Sarif:

“The ultimate thing about love is that you have to work on yourself –
if you’re just waiting for someone to come and save you, it’s never going to happen.
It has to come first from within.”

Both The World Unseen and I Can’t Think Straight focus on the development of an intimate relationship between 2 women.  Set in different times and worlds, the women face challenges to their self-identity and life choices.  What drives you to explore such controversial themes as mixed-race relationships, racial politics, sexual identity and female self-empowerment?

All of these things sound like a lot of different things, but I think they all relate to the same core thing – which is human beings just need a bit more pushing to question whatever rules that are around them, whether it’s rules surrounding you as a woman, as a black person, as a gay woman, whatever it might be… I think all these things need to be just questioned, questioned, questioned!  Because, at the core, they are so irrelevant to your own happiness and your core values.  You know, who you’re sleeping with, what colour you are – these are all the least possible ways to judge someone’s character.  You know people say to me, “Oh, you’re gay – you have to meet my gay friends!”  So, then you meet their gay friends, but sometimes it’s like, “Oh, gosh…” because they’re into the nightclubbing, drug-taking, nightmares that I don’t want to be around.  You’re introduced to them just because their gay, but I’ve met heterosexual people like that too, so it’s so irrelevant.  I think, unfortunately, we live in a society where it’s so important for many people to marry within their religion or within their community, and follow the rules.  And especially on the religious side, that fundamentalism, that sense of being pressured not to go outside the box is getting stronger in many ways, and it really makes me upset.

Racial tensions and challenges to gender stereotypes in The World Unseen

Coming to terms with sexual identity and family conflict in I Can’t Think Straight

I read a review of I Can’t Think Straight where the reviewer didn’t appreciate the political overtones off the film, but my impression is that political debate is probably quite normal in the societies you depict...

Yes, it’s normal.  I think what throws people off about I Can’t Think Straight is it’s a romantic comedy, so they don’t expect there to be any of that political discussion.  What people probably don’t realize, because it’s not in their experience, is if you’re ever around an Arab family, even for a 5-minute coffee, it’s impossible to not talk about politics and religion.  This is what saturates the world there, and it saturates their lives.  And I’ve been in that world for 13 years now and I slowly became part of the furniture while all this stuff was flying around.  There’s nothing in that movie that I haven’t heard.  In England, it’s quite possible to go to a dinner party and never get past the weather… or Gordon Brown, if you want to go political.  The British are brilliant at doing that and there’s nothing wrong with that.  But, in the Arab world, after 5 minutes, it gets heated.  You know, I came away from my first meeting with Hanan’s family saying, “Why are you all screaming at each other all the time?”  She was like, “What do you mean?  We’re just talking…”  It’s just a way of life – it’s passionate, excitement, over-the-top drama.

It reminds me of the scene where Tala (a Jordanian Christian of Palestinian origin) and Leyla (a British Muslim of Indian origin) first meet and Tala’s mother makes some unsavoury political comments.  So, you included that dialogue to make a point, based on your own experience?

Absolutely!  Well, it’s skirting the edge of what’s acceptable.  To have a line which says, “Thank god she wasn’t adopted.  What the Middle East doesn’t need is more Jews.” is not going to win you any points in the American-Jewish community, or any community, and rightly so, because it’s a horrible comment.  But, you have to put it in context – who’s saying the comment and what’s the reaction of the people around her?  For example, the housekeeper (played by Eastenders’ regular Nina Wadia) spits into the mother’s glass ten seconds later.  Clearly you’re not supposed to empathize or sympathize with this woman’s views.

Both films have the main characters falling in love, but – more than that – you have them on a journey of self-discovery, figuring out who they are and fighting for what they want in life.  Where do you get your inspiration from?  And, what messages about love can people take from your stories?  For example, if you were to contrast the L Word world with your own…

…idealized world??

Well, I would say “romanticized” world…

Actually, the L Word is the only thing I’ve watched on TV for years – we got the box set sort of a year and a half after everyone else!  

 

I don’t know… I guess my stories are reflective of my own life, to be perfectly honest.  I always had this kind of romanticized ideal.  I understand I’m extremely unusual – I know you nearly fell off your chair when I told you my romantic history!  I’ve never been somebody who could just dance around from one person to another.  For me, I think what happened with Hanan was such an unusual thing, not only in terms falling in love with her of course, but the way we kind of push each other and challenge each other all the time.  And I think I kind of wanted to express that as something that is possible.  So the thing with Amina and Miriam is it’s actually not about the relationship, you’re quite right, because I don’t think Miriam was actually gay, if you want to push me on it, but Amina happens to be the relationship that tips her over.  What Amina does for Miriam is to open her eyes, to take the natural intelligence and awareness that she has and make it there.  And I think that’s an amazing gift to give somebody, so maybe that’s the ultimate human interaction.  I think it’s great to show that, because it makes people aware, it makes people think, “Maybe that’s something that can be done.”  I’m just putting it out there as a possibility.  And I Can’t Think Straight is a romantic comedy, so I think it would be very unsatisfying if Tala and Leyla didn’t make it together.  But, the L Word has its place, because we’re all fallible, all human…  

And the main characters in the films are by no means in a perfect relationship – they do have conflicts, they fight, they split up… 

Definitely, because one of them has to come to terms with things.  And it’s the one you’d expect to be more gung ho who can’t actually do it when push comes to shove…  

But, you also suggest that people can actually face up to their problems and change…

Absolutely!  Because I think you can – you can!  I think the ultimate thing is you have to work on yourself.  Nobody is going to come and save you.  I think with the L Word, you have to have constant conflict and drama and people messing up otherwise you wouldn’t bother watching it, and rightly so because it’s a series.  But, if you’re just waiting for someone to come and make your life better or save you, it’s just never going to happen.  It has to come first from within.  So, I think that’s the ultimate thing about love that I would say people can take away from my films.

Shamim Sarif:

“If you live with integrity,
you’ve got a lot better chance of making whatever you want to do happen.”

Have you been to Japan yet?

No, I’ve never been to Japan, but I’m dying to go there!

Do you have a message for SJ readers?

Just, “Thank you for any support I’ve already had,” because I know we’ve had a lot of people from Japan already contacting us.  And I guess the message is always: If you live with integrity, I think you’ve got a lot better chance of making whatever you want to do happen, whether it’s your dream to be a filmmaker or your dream to be able to be out.  And I think Japan is also a culture that has traditionally a lot of restrictions within it.  And so, there’s a lot that Japanese people can relate to and take away from my films.

Especially, I’m sure a lot of Japanese people (whether gay or straight) can relate to The World Unseen.

I agree with you.  That’s the thing with The World Unseen – it was never considered a gay novel when it came out.  Women really responded to it, and it didn’t matter if they were from Finland or they were Jewish from Connecticut.  People said, “This just reminded me of my life, and I can’t say what it was, but I think it was just the process of Miriam’s awakening.”

It’s completely earth-shattering when we meet that one person who can open your eyes and question your life and choices… 

And it’s important to be aware.  We probably bump into people like that all the time, but we don’t always know it or we’re not always ready for it…

I Can’t Think Straight production team at the London Lesbian & Gay Film Festival (March 2009), including Nina Wadia (top left) with husband music composer Raiomond Mirza, and singer-songwriter Leonie Casanova (bottom centre)