James Kent, director of The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister (2010)

The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister is the long-anticipated BBC production (broadcast on BBC2 at 9pm, Monday 31 May, 2010) charming audiences worldwide on its current festival run.  This new “lesbian costume drama” is less a period romp than an in-depth look into the private life and achievements of Anne Lister (1791-1840), the Yorkshire (Halifax) diarist, landowner and “Britain’s first modern lesbian.”  

Living in a time and society less aware and tolerant of same-sex relations, through coded language, Anne Lister documented her many passionate liaisons with women in her diaries (stretching to a staggering 4 million words plus) which were eventually discovered and deciphered, and partially published as Helena Whitbread’s 1988 “I Know My Own Heart.”  Despite her efforts to keep her love life private on paper, she is thought to have been bolder in public, refusing to conform to conventional forms of dress for women, and not going out of her way to conceal her attraction to women, earning herself the nickname of “Gentleman Jack.”  Her openness did not go unnoticed or unchecked by her peers, and she must have felt isolated living with her aunt and uncle at 400-acre Shibden Hall, which she eventually would inherit and develop from 1828.

Often referred to these days as a “pioneer” not only in terms of her successful attempt to take on the male-dominated world of land development (she built a coal mine pit with her wife-to-be Ann Walker), but also in terms of her determination to explore relationships with women and seek out a wife for herself, the BBC's Lister is portrayed by Maxine Peake (Criminal Justice, Shameless, Dinner Ladies), quoted as saying that she was “honoured…to be embarking on the role of such a pioneering lady!”  Lister is still, even today, an impressive role-model for all women, not necessarily only lesbians – a challenger of traditional social convention, a contemporary mover and shaker.

 

This lavish BBC production holds nothing back with an outstanding cast, including Maxine Peake, Anna Madeley (Affinity, Sense and Sensibility), Susan Lynch (Elizabeth: The Golden Age), Christine Bottomley (Land Girls, Hope Springs), Tina O’Brien (Coronation Street), Gemma Jones (Spooks), and Dean Lennox Kelly (Shameless, Robin Hood).  Combined with the raw and colourful dialogue from screenwriter Jane English (Sugar Rush), James Kent (Margaret) seamlessly balances Anne’s tenderness with her ambitious self to the backdrop of gritty Yorkshire realism.  We are sucked into the thoughts and exploits of Anne Lister as she rides the waves and battles the storms of her rollercoaster affair with Mariana Belcombe (played by Madeley) which continued for 5 years into Mariana’s marriage to wealthy gentleman Charles Lawton.  As she is forced to confront the realities of Mariana’s betrayal, we see Lister crumble before our eyes before she finally resolves to fight for her wish to settle down with a female companion and design a life on her own terms.  Teaming up with Ann Walker turned out to be a massive coup for Lister on both a business and personal level.  And yet, director Kent is carefully to remind us towards the end of the drama that Mariana’s presence has not left Lister entirely, although Mariana has in effect “missed the boat” with Lister.  

 

Maxine Peake, herself a “northern lass,” gives nothing short of a breathtakingly real and no-holds-barred performance as Lister, launching herself into the ranks of leading British actresses of our time.  It is hard to imagine another actress having embodied the role so boldly and wholly, and Peake has surely done the memory of Lister proud.

 

The BBC2 broadcast of the drama is to be followed (at 10:30pm, same day) by a documentary on Anne Lister, Revealing Anne Lister, presented by popular out lesbian comedian Sue Perkins.  

 

In this exclusive SHATTERJAPAN interview, director James Kent talks openly about his background and involvement with the Lister project, as well as his impressions of Anne Lister as a female and queer icon.

Director James Kent

SJ:

Thanks for meeting me today, James.

It's fine – pleasure. 

SJ:

To give people a general idea of your background, could you please describe where you grew up?

JK:

Yeah, I grew up in a small northern English village in Yorkshire – beautiful place, cows and stone walls… big family – three brothers, two sisters, Jewish family.  I went away to boarding school from the age of 7.  When I finished school, I went to Oxford University and then straight into the BBC after that.  

SJ:

Wow, that's quite a fast track.

JK:

It was – it was lucky, fortunate… 

SJ:

When you were going into the BBC, did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to do there or were you on a training program?

JK:

I was on a training scheme and it was for news journalists.  I actually have to say, it was a brilliant scheme and they had ridiculous months and money to train you, but it was too “throw away” – every day, it was a whole new beginning and you never felt there was any product that you’d created at the end.  So, I transferred over to documentaries, which is my main background, making feature-length documentaries – quite harrowing subjects is what I normally do, so Anne Lister is a very different film to my normal films.

SJ:

It certainly is.  I read that you were working on Newsnight…

JK:

…yeah, Newsnight, which is the main current affairs nightly program.  And, you get to make quite a lot of films, but nothing like directing a full-length drama, which is just a completely different set of skills and considerations.  Newsnight's a very report-led program.  The reporters are the ones who have the glamour, and the producers (which is what I was) are like golf caddies on a golf course, who carry the clubs… I’m a golfer!

SJ:

Let's go back to when you were growing up in Yorkshire.  In terms of your personal background, did you “come out” from a young age, or was it quite difficult to do so?

JK:

It shouldn't have been difficult.  There's nothing in my family to indicate any illiberalism or problems with being gay, looking back.  But, I didn't come out till I was almost 30 – I was 28, I think.  I was footling around a bit before, but didn't actually talk to my parents about it.  And then, my dad died when I was 28, and I think that probably prompted me to think, “Right – live the life you want to live and live it freely and openly.”  And so, I had a relationship with a guy in Paris.  I was over there making a documentary, and came back and decided to tell everybody the first time when I saw them afresh that I was gay.  And, it was absolutely fine.  I should have done it five years earlier… ten years earlier!

SJ:

In terms of visibility of queer characters in films and on TV when you were growing up, did you have any role models you related to? 

JK:

No.  It's sort of very hard to express my sexual-gender journey, if you like, because I didn't have that.  I mean, I completely subsumed myself into my work, my family, my friends…  Maybe being at boarding school was a sort of further obstacle, in the sense that I didn't have evenings out or weekends away… very locked into these institutions.  So, I really went with the crowd – I was a completely conformist.  But, I was creating a lot of problems in terms of my homesickness, which is a very British disease for kids at boarding school.  So, I think I was sort of dealing with other issues.  It was only when I left and started going to university that things started to develop.  And, yeah, I think I had crushes from university onwards – I had crushes on guys…  I had crushes on students at college.  There was always somebody I was absolutely obsessing about, but nobody really in the media.

SJ:

Right.  Again going forwards, the other day you came to the London Lesbian & Gay Film Festival and talked about how you would prefer people to regard you as a director now and not to use the term “queer” or “gay” director.  But, why did you feel the need to say that? 

JK:

Well, I felt the need to say that just in terms of the work I'm in.  I mean, I don't mind being known as gay – I’m giving this interview which is on a website – but, I've only ever really made two gay films: One was on the murder of Gianni Versace (it was a documentary, a feature-doc for HBO and the BBC) and the other is Anne Lister.  And, I've made more than 25 films, so all [calling me a “gay” director] would do is misrepresent my work.  I've spent a long time doing the work and I just don't think it's accurate to describe me as “gay” director.  I'm a director who happens now and again to come across a gay subject, but I'm very happy to do gay subjects – I love them… in fact, it's great.  I discovered with Anne Lister that to do something about somebody who's sort of gone through similar issues in terms of dealing without a society (in a very different kind of context, of course) is more thrilling and I’d be happy to do more of it.

SJ:

Great.  Do you think that sexual identity these days could actually still be a barrier for people working in TV?  Or, do you think we're at the age now, in Britain especially, where it's quite irrelevant in terms of being hired?

JK:

I think in most areas of television, it's absolutely not an issue anymore.  I think there are one or two areas, I suspect… not so much.  I don't see being out and being proud to be out as being an issue anywhere [in TV].  But, I think to be out and to be strongly out in slightly more conventional areas like news and sports is probably an issue in some instances – it could be an issue for your colleagues.  It's a very male-dominated area, quite rigid, quite structured.  I think to be a very out gay man – let’s say to be quite camp, for example – I think that could be an issue just in terms of some of the way other colleagues relate to you.  So, it's not not an issue, but I'd be really surprised if there's anywhere now where to be gay [is an issue].  I mean, there are some really high-ranking gay people (and they’re out) in television, and they've never expressed (like me) any sense of it being a problem.

SJ:

Right.  I'm just thinking of a few articles over the last couple years related to BBC Radio and TV who received a lot of complaints of homophobic comments being made, not necessarily by production staff, but more by performers or presenters…

JK:

I think that's the big distinction, isn't it, really?  Because, I think presenters are always (and I'm not forgiving it, by the way) trying to create an ego for themselves and sometimes that does expose their subconscious prejudices.  I think they’re in a particular line of work, and it's incredibly public.  As in production staff, I think there’s an issue if you're black – I think there’s a massive issue if you’re black, because I don't see many black people working in my line of television or filmmaking.  But, I do come across a lot of gay men and gay women.  So, I think the facts speak for themselves…

In BBC2's The Secret Diaries of Miss Anne Lister (2010),

Manchester-born actress Maxine Peake gives an extraordinary performance as diarist,

successful landowner and “Britain's first modern lesbian” Anne Lister (1791-1840) (photo courtesy of BBC)

James Kent:

“Maxine Peake was a joy to work with...
This film is a story of great commitment and courage by Anne Lister.”

SJ:

You mentioned that you've worked on about 25 films.  And, of course, people will remember you for Margaret [2009 BBC2 drama about Margraret Thatcher's final days as British Prime Minister].  But, how different was your experience with Anne Lister, compared to the other work that you’ve done until now?

JK:

It was great for so many reasons.  I had a much tighter relationship with the writer – we were very collaborative from quite an early stage.  Her name's Jane English and she was brilliant.  I think she was incredibly open to creating a script that I would feel happy to shoot.  The executives in a film like this are incredibly important – they can be very on top of you, very controlling.  But, this was the opposite – they were very free and they wanted a film that was truly my vision, instead of just saying what they wanted.  They actually acted on that, so that was great.  And, Maxine Peake, as the actress who plays Anne Lister, was a joy to work with… and they're not always.  I mean, Lindsay Duncan in Margaret was also a joy, but actors can be difficult and [Maxine] was great in every respect.  So, I think it was a really pleasurable experience.  And, as the film went on, I think that we all felt we were doing something quite new that would have a real and particular core constituency.

SJ:

Wow, that's very interesting – you don't get to hear that very often, do you?

JK:

Well, I think the lesbian audience don't get much and when they get it, it's often a bit tongue-in-cheek or a bit rompy, or it’s a “school girl’s rites of passage” – there's another project coming out, which is a kind of “school girl’s rites of passage.”  That's fine, but I think there are lots of older lesbians out there who want something a bit more tender and a bit more grown up, perhaps.  Although [Anne Lister] is quite witty at times, I think it is telling a true story and you come away realizing this is a story of great commitment and courage by Anne Lister and that's worth knowing.

SJ:

For those who aren't very familiar with Anne Lister, could you summarize quickly why she is a significant character in lesbian history?

JK:

Anne Lister's significant to lesbians, I think because she's one of our sole pieces of evidence that lesbianism even kind of existed at the time of Jane Austen.  And, if it existed then, well you can just assume it existed always, in a way.  I mean, she was so dedicated in writing down her passions and her eroticism, and (although it was for her own consumption) I think she always probably had an eye to the outside world, knowing the life that she lived.  And, she was so ‘out there’… she was kind of the Quentin Crisp of her time – she wore these clothes that people commented on in downtown Halifax, the local town where she lived.  And, she just had such great passion for the women that she loved – I mean, she was utterly promiscuous – it’s brilliant that she could do that…

 

Anne Lister was involved with several women, including the naive Miss Browne (left, played by Tina O'Brien),

love-of-her-life heartbreaker Mariana (centre, played by Anna Madeley) and the woman with whom she finally settled down,

Ann Walker (right, played by Christine Bottomley) (photos courtesy of BBC)

Anne shares an intimate moment with the elusive Mariana (left)
Anne wastes no time in seducing Miss Browne (right) (photos courtesy of BBC)

SJ:

It doesn't really come across so much in the film, but in the scene with Miss Browne [played by Tina O’Brien, Coronation Street] of course, you get a sense that this was probably happening more than just a few times…

JK:

Well, she didn't just sleep with Miss Browne – she didn’t just sleep with Mariana [played by Anna Madeley, Affinity, Sense And Sensibility], who’s the great love of her life.  She slept with two of Mariana's sisters as well, so she’s slept with all three.  If you like, she got a hole-in-one… literally!  She was very, very full-on…

SJ:

You said you worked very close with writer Jane English, but how involved were you in the research side of the drama?  Or, did you leave that more up to the writer?

JK:

I did, in this instance.  I mean, I read the diaries, but for me, what's absolute key – the holy grail – is the script.  I do research and I think it's good to research, get a sense of the period, but with such limited time for me, it's much more important that I understand every nuance of the script and I can pass that on.  I think it's great that it's a real character because there is proper research that you can do, but beyond that, I must say I left most of it to Jane.  I did, obviously, research locations and landscapes and furniture…  For example, there was a classic case where the art designer wanted to put a four-poster bed in Anne's bedroom, and my view was “No, let's not do that.  She probably would have had a four-poster, but it sort of makes the film feel older, not more modern.”  So, I went for [a standard] bed, so people could lie on it, throw themselves on it, not be encumbered by great big pillars of wood everywhere…

SJ:

Artistic license…

JK:

Yeah, we did quite a lot.  I mean, we looked at the photographs of Nan Goldin, who's a New York photographer.  She captures things and composes things in very naturalistic light – they're sexy, but also slightly grubby as well.  You know, they're real and they're quite sad, but I think that was the kind of feeling we wanted to get.

SJ:

And, also the costumes, of course – I was quite fascinated by the costumes you used for Maxine…

JK:

Yeah, because they go from classic bonnet dresses early on to something that's almost close to an Edwardian look – big black collars with a big black cravat, she's got her hair up and she looks a lot older… she looks a bit like Marlene Dietrich.  It’s fantastic – she's sort of butch and more "in command."

SJ:

And – I don't know if this is intentional, but – she seems to get more butch as the story goes on…

JK:

Yeah, it is intentional – absolutely.

SJ:

…the way she walks, the way she holds herself…

JK:

She gets more confident – she gets more powerful and more “F**k you!”  She just thinks, “If Mariana's not going to love me and if society's going to [reject me], I don't give a toss – I'm just going to be who I am,” which is great.

SJ:

Talking about lesbians getting more confident, of course I'm thinking of Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit by Jeanette Winterson way back, where the main character goes through a similar process of transition.  And, talking about lesbian dramas, Jane English also worked on Sugar Rush…

JK:

She did – she wrote half of Sugar Rush…

SJ:

Just to get to the production side again, how did the casting for the characters take place?  Were there a string of auditions, or was it quite clear that somebody wanted Maxine straight away?

JK:

Well, we had a list of actresses and Maxine was very – you know, we don't really have a “top” to the list, we just had a list of actresses, about ten of them.  And, we didn't really explore very far before we heard that Maxine was interested, and so, I have to tell you, I was absolutely over the moon.  Because, I have directed films where the lead actress or actor has taken a long time to get, you're quite close to filming, and everyone's a bit jittery, really.  But, Maxine – I hadn't really seen her recent performance in Criminal Justice, but I’d seen her in Red Riding, Little Dorrit, The Devil's Whore… Dinner Ladies!

SJ:

Actually, one of my friend’s cited Dinner Ladies – it's significant!

JK:

Yeah, it’s got quite a cult following.  And of course, Shameless is a thing a lot of people know: Veronica in Shameless.  You know, Maxine barely plays a bum note.  She's one of those actresses who is kind of almost always on top of her game and that’s quite rare…

SJ:

And, she's got range as well…

JK:

Absolutely right – she's got amazing range from comedy to tragedy.  And, her face in this film sort of goes from “delinquent stroppy teenager” (almost) with her aunt and uncle [played by Gemma Jones [Spooks, Harry Potter And The Half Blood Prince] and Alan David] to “commanding lady of the manor” – and she can play those changes brilliantly, so I was thrilled that she did it.

Anne lived with her aunt (and uncle) at Shibden Hall which she eventually inherited (photo courtesy of BBC)

SJ:

Just out of interest, did any of the actresses that you hired or were offering parts to hesitate in terms of playing a lesbian role?

JK:

No, not at all.  I mean, I think the sex scenes in the script were an issue… had to be talked through in great detail about, and I understand that.  I mean, that's about trust actually and about believing that the script is out to do something.  And, the sex scenes aren’t “sex scenes” – they're just explanations and illustrations of the love, the passion.  That was something that needed to be negotiated, if you like, and that makes sense.

SJ:

Yeah, totally.  I was really thrilled by Maxine's performance, actually, and like you said, she's very accomplished already.  But, I read some comments she made prior to filming that she was “honored” to play Anne Lister but she was “petrified” to take on such a big role, with Anne Lister being “such a pioneering lady!”  How do you think she feels now, having completed the project?  Has she said anything to you about what it meant to her, personally?

JK:

Well, first of all, I think she's absolutely thrilled with the film.  She seems to be really happy with how it's turned out, so that's great – that’s a tick for me.  She hasn't said anything specifically about having played Anne to me, but I've heard her talk about Anne and about how inspirational Anne is.  And, Anne's a northern girl and Maxine's a northern girl.  I think there's something rather nice about playing somebody from your part of the world… there’s a “northernness” to the film – it’s not a highly-cultured refined society that you find in London, it's not pretentious, it's gritty and down to earth, people call a spade “a spade.”  And, I'm a northerner and I think that's kind of in the script – people are very open with each other, it's all a bit more “rough around the edges” and a bit more parochial in how it looks at the world.  So, for example, Mr. Rawson, who's an industrialist, is a complete gruff bluff northern businessman, and he's in it to make some money – Dean Lennox Kelly [Shameless] plays that really well because he gets it.  And, Charles Lawton [played by Michael Culkin] who's Mariana's husband calls a spade “a spade” and he's out to make his fortune.  I think the women are a bit like that as well, in the coal mining industry.

SJ:

Yeah, I really like the scenes where you have Anne walking through the undergrowth and she's dragging her gown along.  I was thinking, “That’s really Yorkshire, isn’t it..?”  There's no style to her whatsoever in those moments...

JK:

No, there isn't… 

SJ:

Was that intentional?  It's very Yorkshire, isn't it?

JK:

Yes, it was.  People are out in the elements, it's pissing down, it's foggy.  I mean, we had to film in late November/early December, which in England is a pretty horrific month to film in.

SJ:

It looks quite good, considering…

JK:

Yeah, we were quite lucky.  I mean, it rained plenty, but, for the day on the moors – which is sort of the opening scene and all the other shots from the moors – we only had one day, and it was a short day because daylight hours are so short.  So, I was really worried we wouldn't get all that, but between the rain, there were moments we could film…

Anne’s relationship with Mariana is passionate and unpredictable (photo courtesy of BBC)

James Kent:

“Anne has to change as a person as a result of the irreparable break with Mariana
– She finally turns her back on somebody who offers the unpredictable… she hardens…”

SJ:

From the very beginning of the film, Anne speaks really openly about how she loves only women and that ultimately her goal is to find a companion – a woman – to share her life with.  And, this theme runs throughout the whole film and just seems to pick up speed, as you say, the more she grows in confidence.  That, I suppose, was Jane English’s concept for the film, but why was it so important for you to focus on the idea that her ultimate goal was not really romance and passion, but actually to have a full life with a person?  Do you personally relate to this theme?

JK:

It’s really important to me.  I mean I happen to be in my mid-40s.  And, Anne was about 40 I think when she met Ann Walker [played by Christine Bottomley, Land Girls, Hope Springs], the younger woman who becomes her companion for life.  And so, I related strongly to the fact that there comes a point where what you’re looking at for the rest of your life is somebody who’s a real companion and somebody who you can just be comfortable with.  It challenges you and that’s great, but the sex becomes part of a bigger thing.  When you’re young, everyone’s libido’s just a bit more active, and, also you’ve got the kind optimism about life and anything can happen.  And actually, what happens to a lot of people (and I see this in my friends), as you turn over 40 and move towards 50 or whatever… it’s about an acceptance – that as well as challenging yourself and keeping that fire going, you need to accept that certain things are probably going to be in place, just so that you realize you’ve achieved a lot and life is brilliant, but you’re not going to win a Nobel Prize anymore, you’re not going to become a concert pianist, or you’re not going to become Bertolucci. 

SJ:

You become a bit disillusioned I suppose, don’t you, or realistic…

JK:

Yeah, well, I think what you have to do is, in all respects, be happy with what you’ve got and build on that, but what you’re not to do is yearn for something which will never be yours, because there’s no point to that.  And, I think with Anne Lister, Mariana did represent passion, but she’d really spent herself trying to woo Mariana, and I think what Ann Walker offered was a very sweet, actually, and very committed intense friendship, as well as of course a willingness to do that together, and openly.  The final scene of the film, I set in a greenhouse, because there’s something about that space that felt domestic and full of light, but also low-key with just potting plants.  I wanted the film to finish on quite a low-key note really, just to say, “Well, this is what Anne would have and she would probably be quite happy with that.”

SJ:

I was debating with myself if it was a happy ending or kind of a melancholy ending.  But, I think I’m satisfied with thinking it was low-key.

JK:

It’s meant to be wistful I think.  It is a happy ending, but it’s also (and I think we’ve probably all got these characters in our past) this sense that there is somebody who offers the unpredictable, the unknown and the excitement of that.  And, I suppose Anne Lister finally turns her back on that.  And, she sort of gives up her youth and accepts her middle age at that point.  That’s wistful, not happy….

SJ:

It’s not giving up...?

JK:

It’s a compromise.

Anne finds comfort with Ann Walker (photo courtesy of BBC)

SJ:

Talking about the turning point – this is the scene that moved me the most, the one when they fight in the coaching inn... It’s the way Anne’s panicking and chasing after Mariana.  It’s very uncomfortable to watch actually…

JK:

It’s a brilliant performance.  Before we shot it, that scene wasn’t really delivering in terms of the script.  And, I asked Jane would she write what we called “The Hecuba scene” – by which we meant “a Greek tragedy… Hecuba“ where women slit their wrists, mourn, and tear their hair out…

SJ:

You’re talking about “dyke drama…” – the ultimate dyke drama scene…

JK:

It’s a dyke drama!  They’ve got to go for it in such a way that they say things which can never be unsaid.  It’s like they’re on the edge of a cliff and they’re going to jump.  It’s like saying, “Oh, bugger it… I’m just going to jump, because there’s nothing more to be said.  I can’t say it loudly enough…”  I think what’s interesting in that scene is that both characters are in a situation where they’re saying what they really feel.  It’s like lines in the sand are being drawn, and there’s no going back, and what that means is – and the audience seems to understand this – the break is irreparable, there is no “gluing it together again” which is what happened in previous fights when you just got letter-writing.  This is the end of everything.   And, you need to now that, because (A) that’s what happened, and (B) Anne has to change as a person as a result – she has to fall so hard from that argument that she decides (in the film) she’s going to live abroad, and she kind of changes internally, she sort of hardens.  As she says, “I’m going to suit my own convenience and no-one else’s.” That’s what she wrote in her diary.  And so, she sort of hardens and she becomes somebody who’s just going to be “Right – my life!”

SJ:

The line she says in that scene, “I crave a stronger character…” – it’s like a light bulb has just gone off inside her.

JK:

“I crave…” I mean, that word “crave…”  She was desperate for somebody to love.  When she went to make a mining deal with Ann Walker – they set up a coal mine together – I think there definitely weren’t any romantic intentions at that point, it was only gradual and then suddenly Ann Walker almost comes on to her.  And, all that is faithful to what actually happened.

SJ:

And, the character of Tib [played by Susan Lynch, Elizabeth – The Golden Age] is sad. She’s not very principal in the film, but was it quite important for you to really give that character some sense of place in the story?  Because In a way, it’s reflective of what Anne is about to go through with Mariana…

JK:

Yeah, I hadn’t thought of that actually, but there’s some kind of foretaste of Anne’s journey.  I think Anne and Tib had had quite a long relationship together prior to Mariana’s arrival, but it is one of those relationships which is probably quite sexually-based, I don’t know if there was a lot of match on the characters.  And Mariana was beautiful, but I don’t think Tib was that beautiful – Tib was a kind of rough country girl, although she came from a good family in York and she went back to live with them.  They’d met at school – Anne went to a private school in York called “The Mount” which still exists, and Mariana had gone there and I’m pretty sure Tib had gone there as well, so they all knew each other from those days.  Tib I think almost introduced Mariana to Anne, so they were like old school mates.

And, I think the important thing to remember is that lesbianism in the 19th century was probably incredibly common, just because girls were in loveless marriages – they were forced into marriage, so finding a confidante was quite common.  And, I suspect a lot of these girls at school probably did have (whether it was permanent or not) lesbian liaisons.

Tib suffers heartbreak at the hands of Anne (photo courtesy of BBC)

SJ:

So, as far as we know, Anne Lister’s diaries are one of the few records of lesbianism in those times?  And, with it having been in code and recently cracked, it’s quite an important milestone in lesbian history…

JK:

It is.  And, the consultant of our film was the one who’d unearthed those diaries, Helena Whitbread, who’s now I think in her 70s.  She’d actually been doing a PHD thesis and gone into Halifax public library where these Lister correspondences were, looking for letters – I mean we’re talking almost 30 years ago now – and then came across the diaries which had been hidden inside the house, and taken out and put in the library.  No-one else had really bothered to look at them. 

SJ:

To go back to the production again, you mentioned with the sex-scenes and the characters that that was something which really had to be discussed carefully with the actresses.  How did you decide how graphic you wanted the scenes to be?  Did you worry at what point it would become gratuitous?

JK:

It’s a good question.  I wanted it to be quite graphic, I suppose for no other reason than the fact that Anne was incredibly graphic and very, very, very highly-sexed, and she was also the dominant partner, very clearly – that’s how she writes about her sex life.  And, it felt like it would be just a lack of reflection of Anne – it wasn’t going to be gratuitous because it was part of understanding who Anne was.  And, I think if you’d had a kind of covered sex scene, where you just get to see the nipples, I just think the audience now would go, “God, how coy is that?”  I don’t know, it just feels so antiquated.  My attitude about sex scenes is that they’re just another scene and they should be there to illustrate the point, just like a “dinner party” scene, or a “going for a walk” scene, or a “getting in the bath” scene.  I don’t know, they’re just another scene…

SJ:

But, you didn’t have any guidelines?

JK:

Well, I was worried about the BBC.  I thought the BBC would be more on it, just because they’re the BBC, but actually they were brilliant.  And they were just like, “Yeah, we get this, we see it.  It’s fine.”

SJ:

And, they just trusted you with it…

JK:

Well, they were a bit nervous at the scripting stage.  They were like “Right, how many nipples are we going to see in this film?”  But, actually they were really relaxed about it all… as they should be.

SJ:

Fantastic.  Well, we already talked a little bit about the BBC and how restrictive they were.  But, in general, are they very happy with the production? 

JK:

Yeah, they are very happy.  It’s doing the big festival circuit – it’s opening at Frameline, closing at LA (Outfest), it’s going to the Toronto gay festival.  We’ve sent it to Cannes – I think probably as Europe is concerned, we’ll try to get it into a mainstream festival, just so that it doesn’t always go to gay festivals.  London’s been a brilliant launching pad.  And, I was told that it’s the first time Frameline has ever taken the same film that opened London.   

SJ:

You’ve already talked a little bit about how much this film meant to you.  Can you talk a little bit more about this, now we’re at the point of going to festivals and broadcasting.  What does this mean to you now, having completed this project?  And, can you see yourself wanting to do more similar projects in future? 

JK:

This film means so much to me, because it’s probably the biggest input I’ve had on a drama.  So, it’s opened my eyes really to what the true director’s role can be, which is to inhabit the film and to be the custodian, but also find his/her own vision of the writer’s intentions.  And, I think Anne Lister is really close to me for that reason, and also because it is about a gay woman, and I’m a gay man – that’s important.  And, I think It’s not a classic period film – it does hopefully feel quite modern.  

I suppose to the question of would I like to do more of this work.  Yeah, if the script’s great and if the characters are interesting enough.  I mean you asked me at the beginning of this interview why didn’t I describe myself as a gay director, and I guess I don’t describe myself as a gay director because there may be other subjects which are more interesting to me at any given point than a subject that happens to be gay, and I want to do the most interesting subjects I can find.

SJ:

There’s a documentary accompanying the BBC broadcast?

JK:

Yes, I haven’t seen it yet.  It’s presented by Sue Perkins 

SJ:

Have you got anything you’re working on at the moment?

JK:

I’m in one of those situations where I’m hoping several projects might come off, but they’re all for mainstream broadcasters – TV projects.  One is a big ITV series, another’s a single one for BBC drama, and another’s a big feature doc.  But, I can’t do all of them, I probably can only do one.  So, hopefully, one of the 3 will happen.  Otherwise, it’s going to be bread and water all summer!

SJ:

…take a vacation or something…

JK:

Yeah exactly!

James Kent:

“Never lose faith.”

SJ:

Do you have any advice for budding filmmakers and writers?

JK:

Well, yeah.  My advice to budding filmmakers and writers who work in the television and film industry is never lose faith, just exploit every contact you have, keep your eyes and ears open to every piece of material that might express a vision for you, talk it through with friends, see what their opinion is.  Just keep trying to do it, because I think it’s a fantastic medium.  And, now that economically it’s possible to make a film without needing massive resources, go out and just shoot stuff, and try it out, and don’t be afraid to adlib.  Exploit every single aspect that there is.  Because I think that more than ever now it’s truly an artistic expression because you can create it with so little money.  And, it’s when money gets involved that your personal vision has to be watered down.  It’s possible to be an artist on digital video.  Do it for yourself because it satisfies you, you want to express something.  After all, a lot of artist’s work gets seen by one or 2 people, it’s a painting that gets bought by somebody and ends up in a living room.  You’ve got the opportunity even if you’re seen by a 100 people, that’s still an amazing thing, to have 100 people sit down and watch 20 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes of something that you’ve done.  I think that’s so great, so do it!